Sermon - The Insanity of Sin

» left by Ben Morrish

2 years 351 days ago.
48 fans.

"Could it be that the plague of mental illness in our country today is the result of our people forsaking the Lord?"

 

If this is the case, then the proportion of Christians amonst the mentally ill will be significantly lower than the proportion of Christians in the general population. I don't think the evidence supports this, so the answer to your question is no.

 

Also, there seems to be a suggestion here that mental health problems are somehow deserved - a righteous punishment by a just God.

 

Are you suggesting that the mentally ill are sinners and deserve their illnesses?

 

"Without a personal knowledge of God our minds become worthless, are thinking unsound, insane, and our behaviors becomes immoral"

 

The evidence of reality clearly contradicts this assertion.

 

Atheists are no more likely to behave in an immoral manner (or go blind for that matter!) than religious people. Less so in fact, if the proportion of religious people behind bars is anything to go by.

 

There's also no evidence that atheists are any more likely to be (or become) insane than non-atheists.

 

As to atheist minds being worthless, that is simply an offensive slur against a (large) minority group.

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» left by Mark Parsec 2 years 351 days ago.
283 fans.

Ben,

 

Your comments once again demonstrate your predjudice and misconceptions against all things Christian.

 

It is your assumption assertion that the proportion of Christians amongst the mentally ill would not be proportionately lower than the general population. However, what you fail to recognize our the hundreds of thousands of individuals whom have found relief through a Christian approach to counseling and recovery. As an example I would site Celebrate Recovery, an international Christian recovery program that alone has reached tens of thousands of individuals, helping to find solutions to their problems with addiction, depression, anger and other psychological issues that are manifested with a godless paradigm of the universe.

 

The other thing you fail to recognize is that not all individuals that claim to be Christians are in fact Christians by definition, which would require a personal transformational relationship with the resurrected Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the article did I say that "religion" offered solutions to mental health problems, and in all honesty I would have to assert that religion fosters and aggrevates mental health issues.

 

But, the transformational experience that is available to Christians of which I speak, is surely something that you are not capable of comprehending. A fuller understanding of this phenomenon can only begin when you grasp the significance of the conversion experience, in Greek 'metanoia'. The metanoia experience has been studied and documented and essentially results in the absolutely revolutionary change of an individual's persona; their thoughts, emotions and behavior. Of this, I would postulate you have no experience.

 

You also asserted that the article suggested that mental health was "deserved - a righteous punishment by a just God. Once again, your misconceptions have distorted the reality. So, allow me to elaborate... The intent of this portion of the article, as you will come to understand if you read Romans Chapter One, is that when we by freely abandon a paradigm of God we create a mindset, and subsequently, behavior that is not compatible with the righteousness of God. God does not punish us... we punish us. God respects our freedom to live life without him, and when we decide to do so He just backs out of the picture and allows us to reap the consequences of our own choices. 

 

The assertion is not that mentally ill individuals "deserve" their illnesses, but that the mental illness is a manifestation of sin. However, the more we sin the greater the propensity for mental illneses.

 

Incidentally, the evidence clearly supports the facts that, "Without a personal knowledge of God our minds become worthless, our thinking unsound, insane, and our behaviors become immoral." Once again there are countless documented cases of individuals who have lost their relationship with the Lord, whom have subsequently ended up in prisions, therapy, institutions. A vast majority of these individuals clearly testify that it was the abandonment of their faith that caused them to lose their sanity.

 

I would have to disagree with your assertions that "Atheists are no more likely to behave in an immoral manner (or go blind for that matter!) than religious people. Less so in fact, if the proportion of religious people behind bars is anything to go by." These statements absolutely contradict the facts. It is well documented that prior to the Christianization of many cultures such things as cannibalism, incest, infantcide, murder, rape and such behaviors often ran rampant. Subsequent to receiving the Gospel of Jesus Christ entire countries have been literally transformed, great social instituions established, hospitals, relief organizations, welfare programs, justice systems... the list is extensive. To the contrary, when nations have abandoned their adherence to the faith and embraced an atheistic attitude some of the greatest attrocities in the history of mankind have been wittnessed, such as occurred in Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, and many more nations could be sited.

 

Regarding your assertion that "There's also no evidence that atheists are any more likely to be (or become) insane than non-atheists." This of course would depend entirely on your definition of sanity. You see, to myself and other Christians the absence of a belief in God, especially atheism is not sound logic, and therefore insane.

 

And finally, with respect to your complaint that, "As to atheist minds being worthless, that is simply an offensive slur against a (large) minority group." That assertion comes directly from the Bible. It may not be politically correct, but it is definitely theologically correct. The Bible tells us in Proverbs that, "The fool has said in his heart there is no God." Now, if you have a problem with God, then you need to bring that up with him.

 

God bless you, Ben.

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» left by Ben Morrish 2 years 351 days ago.
48 fans.

"It is your assumption assertion that the proportion of Christians amongst the mentally ill would not be proportionately lower than the general population."

It is not, it would necessarily follow if your assertion was correct.

"However, what you fail to recognize our the hundreds of thousands of individuals whom have found relief through a Christian approach to counseling and recovery."

I don't deny that at all - many religious groups provide useful support in many areas, including mental illness.

"The other thing you fail to recognize is that not all individuals that claim to be Christians are in fact Christians by definition"

By your definition, presumably not by theirs! How do we decide who has the "one true definition"?

Scientific revelations can also provide "the metanoia experience".

"Incidentally, the evidence clearly supports the facts that, "Without a personal knowledge of God our minds become worthless, our thinking unsound, insane, and our behaviors become immoral." Once again there are countless documented cases of individuals who have lost their relationship with the Lord, whom have subsequently ended up in prisions, therapy, institutions."

There are rather more documented cases of individuals who have committed atrocities because they earnestly believed it was what their god wanted them to do.
Evidence from many sources clearly indicates that atheists are less likely to commit violent crimes than non-atheists (although of course some atheists do commit such crimes).

As a couple of examples, atheists are under-represented in the prison population (compared to their proportion in the general population), and countries with higher proportions of atheists tend to have lower rates of violent crime (Japan and most of the Scandinavian countries for example).


"It is well documented that prior to the Christianization of many cultures such things as cannibalism, incest, infantcide, murder, rape and such behaviors often ran rampant."

The advantages that came with that "Christianization" were more to do with the technological and cultural advancement of the conquering society than it's Christianity.

This can be shown easily, because the exact same thing happened when the relatively advanced Romans bought relatively primitive cultures into its empire and "Romanized" them (the Romans later became Christian for political reasons), and the same thing happened when relatively advanced Arab Muslim societies conquered their more primitive neighbours.

Cannibalism, incest, infantcide, murder, and rape are not widespread in largely atheist countries like Japan. Seeking to compare advanced cultures that happened to be Christian with relatively primitive ones that happened not to be is disingenuous at best - when you compare like for like it becomes obvious that absence of Christianity does not make a culture more prone to cannibalism, incest, infantcide, murder, rape etc.

"To the contrary, when nations have abandoned their adherence to the faith and embraced an atheistic attitude some of the greatest attrocities in the history of mankind have been wittnessed, such as occurred in Nazi Germany"

This is a rather silly example, since Nazi Germany was a Christian country, and Hitler was a Catholic. The Nazi SS had "Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us) on their belt buckles. Nazi Germany was many things, but atheistic was not one of them.

"You see, to myself and other Christians the absence of a belief in God, especially atheism is not sound logic, and therefore insane"

Lacking sound logic does not make one insane, it makes one irrational. There is a difference.
If there was overwhelming evidence that a specific God existed then it would indeed be irrational to deny it.  But there isn't.

"And finally, with respect to your complaint that, "As to atheist minds being worthless, that is simply an offensive slur against a (large) minority group." That assertion comes directly from the Bible. It may not be politically correct, but it is definitely theologically correct."

So the Bible is a justification to make offensive slurs against minorities?
That doesn't sound moral, wise or loving to me. It sounds like playground insults - "if you're not in our gang you're an idiot" or:

"The Bible tells us in Proverbs that, "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."

Well, the Bible would say that wouldn't it  :)

"Now, if you have a problem with God, then you need to bring that up with him."

Atheists can't have a problem with God, we (by definition) don't believe there is such a thing! Being a scientific rationalist, should I ever encounter compelling evidence of a God, I would have no problem in believing in Him (or Her!) :)

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» left by Mark Parsec 2 years 351 days ago.
283 fans.

My Friend, Ben:

 

We banter again. However, before I engage in responding to your most recent comments I would just like to assure you that I appreciate you taking the time to participate in a discussion such of this. I would only hope that you would not take anything that I have to say personally, but consider our dialogue as an exercise in free thought and an exchange of contrasting opinions.

 

Now, on with the game...

 

On the first point, regarding the proportion of Christians being lower in the general population... I am not aware of any study that has been done on the subject that would support your claim. Nevertheless, in my counseling of thousands of individuals through the years I have observed a disproportionate number of individuals with mental illness whom have no belief system at all. Frequently when these individuals acquire a paradigm that includes a foundational belief in a Higher Power "God" many, if not all of their mental illnesses, are significantly relieved if not removed altogther.

 

Point 2: Thank you for acknowledging that the Christian approach to counseling and recovery provides relief to individuals suffering from mental illness. You further admit that "many religious groups provide useful support in many areas." My assertion here is that the vast proportion of religious groups adhere to a fundamental belief in God. I further assert that it is this belief system that provides the foundation upon which mental health can prosper.

 

In response to your question about knowing "who has the one true definition" of Christianity, I quote Jesus himself, "You shall know them by their fruit." It is not what Christians say that is important but how their belief system matches up to their actions. In any event, by the same standard I must assume that many individuals who claim to be atheists in fact are not, but rather agnostics, or pantheists, or individuals whom have been hurt in their childhoods by a paternal figure, and therefore rebelling against the concept of a God. It could be any number of things, but, as you know full well, the proof is in the pudding.

Regarding your statement that "scientific revelations can also provide "the metanoia experience". I would have to acknowledge that as true to some extent. However, I have only heard of a few "scientific conversion experiences" where individuals' lives have been so profoundly effected that they have forsaken family, jobs, wealth or addictions, etc.. In any event, could it be the scientific revelation provides a glimpse into the sanity of God's creation, thereby producing this experience?

I have to strongly disagree with you that there are "more documented cases of individuals who have committed atrocities because they earnestly believed it was what their god wanted them to do" than those whom have lost their faith. The assertion is incompatible with an adherence to the true principle of faith. Once again, their have been numerous incidents of individuals whom have "claimed" to have faith in God, but whom in reality did not live out their faith. People can say anything... actions speak louder than words.

 

Regarding your assertion that "Evidence from many sources clearly indicates that atheists are less likely to commit violent crimes than non-atheists"... I am not aware of any studies that have been conducted in this area and would appreciate references to such.

Further... "As a couple of examples, atheists are under-represented in the prison population (compared to their proportion in the general population), and countries with higher proportions of atheists tend to have lower rates of violent crime (Japan and most of the Scandinavian countries for example)."  Once again, I am not aware of any such studies and must dismiss this claim.


You obviously have missed the mark with your claim that, "The advantages that came with that "Christianization" were more to do with the technological and cultural advancement of the conquering society than it's Christianity." Those cultural changes were in direct proportion with the reception of the Christian faith.  

I also counter your statement that, "Seeking to compare advanced cultures that happened to be Christian with relatively primitive ones that happened not to be is disingenuous at best" (disingenous... are we throwing rocks now?) To the contrary, it was the influence of Christianity that revolutionized civilizations all throughout the Americas, Africa, Asia and the South Pacific. This is an historical fact, and not disengenuous at all."   

 

Furthermore your claim that, "when you compare like for like it becomes obvious that absence of Christianity does not make a culture more prone to cannibalism, incest, infantcide, murder, rape etc." is clearly a misconception. Take a look at what is going on in the Sudan -vs- Mother Theresa's impact on India, or the effect Christianity has had in Rwanda or Kenya.

 

You are quite confused when you say that "Nazi Germany was a Christian country, and Hitler was a Catholic. The Nazi SS had "Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us) on their belt buckles."  In response I have to say that although Germany WAS indeed Christian, it had undergone a serious decline in its Christian population whom had abandoned the faith either by gun or by financial or other political pressures. And Hitler may have claimed to be Catholic, but I wonder what the Pope would say about that... In any event, this same individual was responsible for the incarceration, torture and deaths of millions of individuals who were honestly practicing their faith. Furthermore, SS soldiers sporting "Gott Mit Uns" on their buckles no more makes them Christian than having a picture of Mickey Mouse on my hat makes me a cartoon character.

Your statement that, "Lacking sound logic does not make one insane, it makes one irrational." I adamantly disagree for by definition sanity means "sound mindedness" or "clear thinking".

 

Now you make me laugh when you say, "If there was overwhelming evidence that a specific God existed then it would indeed be irrational to deny it.  But there isn't." Well, Ben, what do you consider to be "overwhelming evidence"? I would assume that such evidence would have to first fit into your preconceived ideas about what is real and what is not real... We are back to the argument about impericalism. I assert that our minds can scarcely comprehend the incomprehensible nature of God, and yet He can and will reveal himself to us when we sincerely ask him to.

 

Have you ever sincerely asked God to reveal himself to you?

And in response to your statment that, "So the Bible is a justification to make offensive slurs against minorities? That doesn't sound moral, wise or loving to me. It sounds like playground insults - "if you're not in our gang you're an idiot" " Likewise, Ben, when evolutionists say that I have evolved from a "monkey" I find that to be an offensive slur. Does science justify that? Or..that if I believe in God that I cannot be . "a " scientific rationalist". Does that make my thinking antiquated? Irrelevant? Superstitious?

 

And yet, this is exactly what science does. It claims that anyone who does not climb on board their humanistic paradigm of the universe is missing something.

And in response to...
"The Bible tells us in Proverbs that, "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."
Well, the Bible would say that wouldn't it  :) The Bible does say that, and that particular statment has been in it for close to 3,000 years. Hmmm

I also find it intersting that you say "Atheists can't have a problem with God, we (by definition) don't believe there is such a thing! Being a scientific rationalist, should I ever encounter compelling evidence of a God, I would have no problem in believing in Him (or Her!) :) Because in our previous communications you identified yourself as a deist. Now which is it?

 

Ben, I am praying that you will have a supernatural encounter with the living God so that you, like myself, can see that there is a God that transcends man's invention of science. So, I challenge you... put God to the test, scientifically speaking... pray to Him and ask him if He is really there if he would reveal Himself to you... I promise He will answer (Maybe not according to your schedule) but he will answer. I look forward to the results of your test.

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